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[lesliefmiller]

[quote1192293477=saw]
...but I don't think you can ask people to stop being so damn friendly. I

...I understand that the people that had not invested as much time might return to see that as invaluable.
[/quote1192293477]

You can put your own spin on this, if it makes you feel better.  But both Alan and I were regular and frequent contributors, in both poetry and critiques.  I had invested lots of time over the years, even designing a t-shirt logo, just in case.  I also helped to edit Octopus Dreams, which means I was one of several who read every poem submitted and also read the manuscript a few times for errors (a few of which got past while Julie was in London).  I consider all of that, including participation here, a good investment.

I stopped posting briefly to write a book, but whenever I did come to the site, even if I didn't post a poem, I read many things that were posted here and even commented on several poems.  In fact, I made it a rule that I would comment on five posts for every single poem I posted.

Whether you found those comments worth your while is a personal decision and may be different for each member.

It's not a question of a desire to be friendly.  One can be friendly but still offer good, constructive criticism about a poem.  I think the level of obsequiousness picked up around here, everyone being congratulatory over every single poem posted.  

It doesn't hurt my feelings if you didn't find anything of value in my comments, and it doesn't hurt my feelings if my poetry isn't your style.  

I am glad this site is now to your liking, and I wish you great goblets of drink from Hippocrene.  

[theirishsea]

saw, I was touring the sights of West Virginia for a week. Just got back this afternoon. It will beMonday or so before I get back into a routine. A lot of things to catch up on.

[saw]

hi leslie, sorry if I opened a sore that had calmed down...I assumed that you and Alan had gone for good and was simply making a final comment based on what I read into the discussions from day one, that possibly the personal relationships formed based on invested time would influence the way they critique.
You mention the obsequiousness, and "everyone being congratulatory over every single poem posted." This sounds to me like a criticism, and if it is intended that way, I have a hard time with criticizing the way people criticize.
I feel it should be okay, if the commenter chooses to only write about the one good thing they see in every single poem, as opposed to citing all the things they don't like. This approach seems to be objectionable, but I think it should be the responder's choice.
Obviously I agree with your observation that this may be happening. What I am trying to have acknowledged is the phenomenom, that as people begin to really like and feel deeply for a poet's mind, there is a risk attached, that the comments may tend to focus more on the positive aspects of people's work as opposed to focusing on what is wrong with the poem, I'm just uncertain if this tendency can be prevented. I hope I have done a better job of getting my point across.
Yes, I do believe that the personal relationships formed here do alter to some degree the content of many responses, towards more favorable aspects of their work. I just don't see how we can ask people to stop doing what feels right in their heart. As I have stated before, I'm really ok with any level of criticsm. I want people to respond exactly as they are feeling.
I apologize, leslie if i have offended you in anyway...communication , as text only, can be so difficult. I was simply asking, in possibly all the wrong words, to value all comments....and this should be the choice of the responder.
I hope that you respect this point. I assure you that I am not trying to drive away people that want to give more detailed criticism I welcome it, and hope
you will continue to be involved here in the capacity you are comfortable with.
Peace.
ps...if i screwed it up again...just know, i have no interest in being the winner,
really !

[lesliefmiller]

Thank you.  No, my true concern was that you thought I was a non-participant in the forum, that before I stopped posting briefly, I didn't post regularly, and that I didn't after, either, and that's not true.

I agree that comments are great, and it shows we're paying attention to each other, and we are friends, some of us, and that's nice, too.  

But I want to work on a book of poetry, polishing the poems and getting them ready to send to someone who may publish them, and you want to write them and post them here, maybe to that end only.  So all of our purposes are different.

And I think that's why some of us were arguing for a separate place to post poetry.  You know what I mean?  It was just really to say, "Hey, please focus on what you DON'T like about this poem," so that we could address those things in revisions.

It's not about winning anything.  And you didn't screw up.  I was just surprised to learn that you thought I was someone who had not invested a certain amount of time here.  (Note our number of stars is the same.)

Another difference is that I'm not spilling my guts here.  My poems are rarely autobiographical.  And there's a tendency here to concentrate on the message of the poem.  People often respond to it, rather than its poetry-ness.  

Like I said, it's OK, but it's why a few of us wanted to make a distinction—not "this is serious poetry"; rather, please seriously read this so that it can leave this site and become something else, maybe.

OK, I think you get it.  It's OK that we don't agree.  And I do see the value of comments in general, whether helpful or simply friendly.

[constantine]

I sincerely hope that both you and Alan will continue to post your poetry. I harbor no animosity, and never did. A workshop thread has been discussed , and I certainly have no aversion to whatever develops. I guess my only gripe was with your opinion of there being a lot of crap on the site, which to me seemed like a subjective value judgment that can change from person to person. Hell, I've read Nobel winning stuff that seemed like crap to me, but I wouldn't say it to the poet's face. If anything is more important than writing good poetry, it is the desire to write poetry. Good or bad - the desire to write should be encouraged and not extinguished by harsh criticism. Again , that is only an opinion - not an accusation. The site is not now as I want it; I didn't want it any particular way. It was what it was when I joined; if it has changed it is because all things change and will continue to do so according to the people involved. We come and we go, but the collective continuum continues.

[lesliefmiller]

Crap is subjective, yes.  And I didn't single anyone out and wouldn't.  


I don't know how many poems have been posted here in nearly three years, but I would guess there are more than 1,000.  So it's probably a good bet that there are some bad poems.

Would you tell the poet to his face?  No, and neither would I.  Unless someone specifically asked, I wouldn't comment at all.  And I've seen a number of poems go without comment, even to the point of the author complaining about it.

I think it's a realistic point of view.  And you sort of confirmed what I said.  ;-)

You're right.  A LOT of poetry is crap.  It stands to reason, then, that there's a lot of it here, too.

I still hold that it does a disservice to tell someone he did a nice job on a poem you really think bites the big one.  It's lying, and it's probably just as harmful as saying that it sucks.

It was not my—or Alan's—intention to imply that we are better writers than anyone else or that our comments were more meaningful, and it wasn't our intention to say that any individual's poems are crap.  It was simply an argument for a place here that we could expect a little more honest criticism.  Because that's what it really comes down to.  I don't think many of us are being honest with each other.  I think we're being nice.  

Nice is fine if it's what you want.  It wasn't what I wanted.

(Civil is quite another matter.  Civility should be expected and name calling discouraged.  It's juvenile and unproductive, and it's wrong even if you're retaliating.)

[saw]

thanx leslie, and everyone that has contributed to this discussion
I believe change in the world begins in your community...on the block you live in...and PIB is no different...it is in essence, a unique community.
Since poets are sensitive, passionate folks, often when the fur flies, it can quickly reach a boiling point. ( it would be good if we could channel that energy into our poems..ha)
I am really uncomfortable not being able to look into people's eyes, see their body language, hear the tones of their voices...it's strange...I once read that communication is 80% non verbal.
If PIB is to grow, then it must suffer growing pains. Just as the site will benefit from the dialogue, it will also benefit from the diversity, To that regard,
I hope you will continue, leslie to contribute and will also convince Alan to do the same. We've all at times apologized for something that was misunderstood, or even something we meant at the time, but later regretted.

So lets all look forward................and hear all the voices.