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[constantine]

 I do not speak only for myself when I say that there are a number of fellow poets on this site that are dismayed and put out by the banning of Michael North (bardmaster) from PIB. Objective analysis of the development of the events that led to his banning will reveal that he was not alone in either guilt or abusive behavior. The issue appeared to be over with , and was then unfortunately( and to my thinking unwisely) reopened . Be that as it may, and after attempts on my part to bring about a re-thinking of this issue, Bard is still banned. We have lost stature by this episode. More importantly we have lost a major voice and player on Pib. In good conscience, I cannot continue to post as if nothing has happened. I dislike the arbitrary use of authority, and the seeming lack of forgiveness exhibited. It is with sincere and profound regret that I must boycott this site until sanity and humanity is restored. I would do the same for any of you. When Bardmaster returns, so shall I.

[saw]

I have also decided, much to my regret to leave my home away from home, due to the unfair banishment of Mike North. Though I understand that Julie felt the need to get things under control, but silencing only one voice from the unfortunate exchanges, while the other main combatant is allowed to remain an active member shows a bias. Mike North has made significant contributions to PIB. It is unfortunate that the comments had to reach the level they did, but it could not have continued, without two main players. Mike's initial comment was not offensive to me. I saw it as someone venting his frustration, knowing the hours he has logged into keeping PIB viable, by comments, however innocent, that PIB had turned into a mutual admiration society, while the commenters were off busy doing other things. Let's face it we are all busy. In my case, I still have 2 children at home, work an average of 60 hours a week, and bring home union work often for the evenings. Having said that, there has been a core group that despite these demands, has put a lot of time into PIB to keep in interesting. I'm sure Mike was frustrated, that people who have posted so little this last year, were dropping back in with a plan to change the ground rules. Frustration from these events and Mike's subsequent comments were merely venting. The gas on the fire, came from the rude " circle jerk" comment, and from there we were off to the races. This poetry site, like any other site is a reflection of the people who put in the most time and effort. I would hope that there could be a better solution than pulling the plug on someone that has shown so much devotion, perhaps some kind of mediation. I look forward to a fair resolution.

[julie]

I understand the frustrations of my decision. I am not happy with it. I would like to invite Mike back.
I agree that Mike has always been a strong PIB participant and I believe vocal supporter of PIB.
He obviously could not argue with himself.  Shadowr has been too quick to respond poorly on several occasions.
I really should have banned both of them. It was obvious, discourse between Mike and Alan often sunk to standards I don't like. I genuinely thought it was going to just blow over.
Before Leslie fueled the conversation anew I had a crisis at home. It has stressed me signifcantly.
I made a quick decision to hopefully stifle further problems, waited for some interaction from Mike and tried to carry on.
It was also well over a week before I got any comments about my decision regading Mike so I thought it was an accepted decision. I even specifically asked for comments.
After a week I got an offer of mediation but I've had sporadic email access.
So at this very moment I am sitting in the OC library trying to think this thru and come up with a more fair solution. Until someone suggests something better, here is what I'm going to do.
I would like apologies from both Mike and Alan for their poor choices and some asurance that it won't happen again.
Once I get both of them I will reinstate Mike and we can go on business as usual.
IF!! a situation like this arises again, I hav one recourse and that will be to moderate comments. The site is not currently designed to moderate single posters so I will have to read ALL posts before they reach the site. This means there won't be anymore instant gratification. Posts will get online when I have the time to allow them. I REALLY don't want that to happen.
So those of you who feel comfortable relaying this message may do so.
Here is another issue that arose for me during this episode. I was pretty disappointed how few people felt they could share with me about the situation. I think a total of 5 members voiced any opinion whatsoever. I'm not some kind of control freak or anything. I just started a website in the hopes i would create some community. If members of the site don't feel comfortable interacting with me, especially regarding serious issues, I don't want the site anymore. I can do without the headaches.

Hopefully at some point over the weekend this will be solved and I can look forward to logging on to PIB.

[shadowr]

I apologize to anyone offended by my remarks. They stepped over the line, but at least I recognize there is a line. I accept responsibility for my part in the flap that occurred and voluntarily withdraw my membership in PiB. I have enjoyed the exchanges with many of you and have found them very helpful in reworking several of the poems I have posted here. I regret losing that contact and will be happy to converse with others about their work privately. Henceforth, you will only be able to reach me at shadowr@aol.com. Good luck with your writing and keep at it!

[countrygrl]

This is sad, sad, sad from start to now.

When my three sons began to war, each got banished to his own space, since each always bore some responsibility.  Space and distance gives a respite of physical/emotional safety, and time to reconsider one's real intent.

I believe it is already time to invite both Mike North and Alan Reese back to the site.  Or invite Mike back and let Alan come back after an absence to the one Mike has experienced.  I suspect they could both return without further acrimony.  I hope they both would be willing to return.

Julie has been doing yoeman's (sp?) service to the Baltimore poetry community, both through this site and in the flesh at all the venues where she has ties.  Julie, I don't think you should ever have to be the cop.  What would have happened, do you suppose, if the "war" had been allowed to flame?  Would it have flamed out naturally? I believe it would.  Are we not sensitive, intentional adults  here?  Have we not, often, posted anti-war poetry?

I am guilty of not having responded when Julie asked for comment.  

Now I say, there is no real cop in this world but the one within ourselves.  Julie doesn't deserve that responsibility.  Nor does she deserve the rudeness that on rare occasions has exploded, none of us does.  

Nevertheless, I believe it is worthwhile to let the word wars rage, when they explode, until the participants realize their own foolishness and come to peace on their own terms.  And those of us not interested in fighting might find ways to respond as mediators toward peace, as Constantine had done on the initial series of posts.  

But an unfortunate series of exchanges as the pulled thread that unravels  this whole knit-together poetry community is, to my mined, another indication that we are still a barely civilized society.  It is the most hopeless solution.  

Can we imagine better, fellow poets?  What do others say Julie should do?  

[MikeMonroe]

I definitely don't like to see anyone banned, or forced to have to leave the site permanently, but then on the other hand, if I'd never been to the site before and I came looking for poetry and saw some of the things that had been written, I'd turn running and never come back, so I understand why Julie felt she needed to do something in this situation.  I'm really hoping, though, that eventually everyone can let this simmer down and we can let everyone back and have business as usual, and in the future we can work to disagree more civilly when we do have disagreements and not let things escalate to the point they did in this unfortunate case.  Maybe I live in an ideal dreamworld within my own head, I don't know.  I definitely think it's possible for grown adults to live together in a civil way, though.  I'll keep dreaming.

[lesliefmiller]

I don't like to see anyone banned, either, and I was only contributing to a discussion I'd never seen before in order to agree that I thought it was a good idea to have a separate place for critiques.  

I'm frankly not interested in whether anyone thinks my opinion was valuable enough (referring to Constantine's opinion that the discussion was unwisely reopened).

But I was personally attacked.  It wasn't a difference of opinion.  It was rude and ugly behavior.  It was uncalled for, and it's not the first time. I don't think that's appropriate behavior for a forum or anywhere else.  And as much as I think that Alan returned the rude behavior, I think we all have people who push our buttons and push us to our limits.  

But by all means invite him back.  

[julie]

Well. I'm basically really frustrated. So I'm going to take a bit of a hiatus from this site. MAybe a few days, maybe longer.
I unbanned Bardmaster. Alan has chosen to leave but is welcome back.
I will not play cop in the future.
I will let things take their natural course and if they get out of hand, the community will have to govern itself.

[saw]

julie, so sorry you were put in this position....i applaud your decision, and hope this serves as an appeal to reason in the future ....so lets all take a deep breath, blow it out, and get back to wrting and commenting in the ways that have made PIB successful......419 and going strong

ps .... sorry I didn't communicate sooner, julie, i don't check this forum on a daily basis.

[theirishsea]

I think I'm most in agreement with countrygirl on this whole issue.


The ideal is peace but meaningful and lively discussion with challenging views, but done in an intellectual manner, and though things can get emotional, let the emotion be about ideas, not personalities.

countrygirl, expresses it best.

I'd like to see everybody back on PIB putting their 2 cents in, no exiles, forced or self-made. Let us begin again.


Julie, don't be too frustrated. It is hard being a site moderator. I hope none of us were angry with you. You try to keep things afloat. You deserve an award for all that you have done for Poetry in Baltimore in the large sense (as well as in the particular sense of this website).


If human relations were an easy thing to facilitate, the world would be a happy place. What we are going through now is like the reconstruction period after a war. We can't promise that fighting won't break out again somewhere, sometime, among somebody, but all of us who have lived through this don't want to get involved in that type of thing in the future.  

Let us get back to the business of writing and discussing and promoting poetry.

Dan

[lesliefmiller]

[quote1190631859=julie]
Well. I'm basically really frustrated. So I'm going to take a bit of a hiatus from this site. MAybe a few days, maybe longer.
I unbanned Bardmaster. Alan has chosen to leave but is welcome back.
I will not play cop in the future.
I will let things take their natural course and if they get out of hand, the community will have to govern itself.

[/quote1190631859]

Julie, you did the right thing in the first place.  And I know you've done what you could.  I think that some people just shouldn't be in the same room.  And since so many people were leaving because of the ban, you did the right thing this time, too.  If only government worked this efficiently upon protest by the citizens.

Take care, everybody.